Posts Tagged ‘prayer’

How to Disprove the Existence of “God”

Tuesday, January 6th, 2009

At the end of a long debate about where lies the burden of proof with regard to proving the existence of a divine being, a frustrated believer might concede a certain level of defeat about lacking the ability to prove the existence of God with evidence outside the bible, but will undoubtedly make what is often considered the final unchallengeable thrust against atheism — that God cannot be disproven.

I beg to differ.

Get your invisible teapot detection kit ready, and let’s disprove God!

To gain an understanding of the concepts involved, and to set the stage for the argument that you can successfully disprove God, start not with what it takes to disprove God, but rather what it takes to prove God. In other words, you’ll need to take the position of the believer who has the burden of proof. To make it easy, ask yourself what it would take for you to believe in God? Notice that it’s very important here that we’re not asking what it would take for you to believe in “a” god. The distinction is critical. For, “a” god is one of the most widely interpreted concepts; proving or disproving such ambiguity is pointless for both sides, since what would follow from the proof wouldn’t support the tenets of whatever scripture the believer wants to claim as true.

What would it take for you to believe in God? For me, it’s the following.
When:
1. God is defined by a specific, unwavering set of characteristics;
2. Sufficient evidence of each and every one of those characteristics is presented to me in such a way that I believed those characteristics to exist, or very likely to exist; and
3. None of the evidence can be attributed to anything other than the “god” as defined.

We can easily make an analogy here to any other proof of the existence of something. Let’s say you claimed to have a Ming vase in a locked cabinet, and you ask me what it would take for me to believe it exists, and to buy it from you for what you claim it’s worth. Well, I’d have to be convinced beyond reasonable doubt (reasonable for the situation) that it’s a Ming vase, so I first ask you to open the cabinet — eyesight is sensory input which would give me at least some starting data. You tell me that you cannot open the cabinet until the vase is purchased — say that it’s some obscure inheritance rule. As a skeptic, what should I do next? Say, “Well, if you can’t show me, then it cannot be true?” I could, certainly, but then what would be the fun of that? I would say, for it to be a Ming vase, it must have some defining characteristics. Can you prove or disprove any of those characteristics without opening the cabinet? I expect so.

There are scanning tools that should give an indication of the contents of the cabinet. You might be able to determine the shape of the vase (if it’s even in there), and with even more fine-tuning, perhaps “see” engravings with sonics. You could also show me documentation, authentications, affidavits, photographs, samples, etc. There are myriad bits of evidence you could toss my way to help convince me that you really do have a Ming vase, and do you know what the kicker is? It might actually work. I might be convinced, with enough proof, and I might pay you for whatever it really is. When we open the cabinet, we’ll have more evidence one way or the other, and at the end of the day, it still might not be a Ming vase, and if I found evidence that it wasn’t, then I should adjust my view on the matter accordingly.

That’s the way we should handle proof of God. A believer isn’t saying there’s “some sort of god” in the cabinet. The believer is saying “my God” is in the cabinet. That’s the important distinction I mentioned. The believer’s god better have some characteristics. What are they? It varies from believer to believer. What should the skeptic do? Ask: What are the characteristics of your god?

The response could be:
1. Omniscience
2. Omnipotence
3. All-loving
4. Able to produce miracles
5. Trinity
6. Created everything
7. Answers prayers
8. Wrote (directly or indirectly) scripture

Any, all, or a selection of those, or other characteristics may be chosen.

The next step is for the believer to gather and present what evidence is available for each characteristic, and then for me to determine whether I feel each characteristic has been sufficiently proven by the evidence. The key here, as it was with the vase, is that these are defining characteristics – necessary characteristics. Take any one of them away, and it’s not the same god that was originally proffered. If you take one away, the believer must either give up or redefine. This continues until that happens, or I am satisfied with the evidence.

I’m not actually going to challenge any of the characteristics or evidence in this article, as all of them have been discussed repeatedly elsewhere. However, I will say that, for me, and for the vast majority of scientists and skeptics of the world, the evidence isn’t sufficient to prove the existence of God.

And that’s where the believer jumps in with, “Well, you can’t disprove God!”

Yes, I can. The same way the believer failed to prove God. By definition.

God is fully and wholly disproved when:
1. God is defined by a specific, unwavering set of characteristics; and
2. Sufficient proof is provided that at least one of those characteristics is not true.

Let’s test this. The believer decides to define God as omniscient, creator of everything, answers prayers. The believer offers up various arguments trying to prove each characteristic. When we test each one, we realize that prayer has repeatedly not worked as advertised. Reply to the believer: prayer is not answered, therefore your god does not exist. Why can I say that with such authority? It’s simple math (math/logic).

God (G) is the set of characteristics with the elements: omniscience (O), creator of everything (C), prayer-answerer (P).

So,

G ≡ (G = {O,C,P}) & (O & C & P)
~P
∴ ~G

Translation:

God exists if and only if the set of God’s characteristics is omniscience, creator of everything, and prayer-answerer AND each of those characteristics is True. (for each rehash of the “definition” of God, the set of characteristics is changed to match — there’s no cheating!)
Prayer-answering is not True.
Therefore God does not exist.

(sorry if my notation is rusty — I’m using a mix of math and logic)

So, even if we stipulate O and C, the god as defined (G) does not exist, because we’ve determined that a necessary element of G (P) is not true. At this point, the believer might reply that it’s fine to just drop the prayer part, but God exists otherwise. As a skeptic, you might want to respond, “Okay, assuming God as defined by omniscience and creator exists, what then?” The believer (and these are responses I’ve received from this argument!) might go on to say that it follows that if God exists, then the bible is true, or that the quran is true, or that God loves you, or that if you don’t believe in God, you’re going to hell, or that all morality derives from God and therefore religion. Something like that. Proper retort? None of those were characteristics of God as defined (i.e., they weren’t elements of the set of G). If the believer would like to start over again, adding to the set of elements, then we can analyze the revised definition of God. Merely because one characteristic might be plausible or even true does not make another characteristic true by its scriptural or alleged intuitive relationship with that characteristic. In other words, even if everyone in the room agreed that an omniscient being exists, it does not follow that the omniscient being, by nature of it being omniscient, created the universe, answers prayers, or sends people to heaven or hell.

So, you can definitively say that God does not exist.

One factor not to be overlooked is alternative natural explanations. If a believer attributes lightning to God, but it’s shown that lightning is a product of nature, God cannot have the characteristic that it is the only thing that can produce lightning. If the believer claims that everything is God, including nature, that potentially resets the characteristics, which need to be defined further if we’re not meant to just shrug our shoulders at the declaration that “God” exists (and that non-believers merely call it nature). In short, if a believer wants others to do something based on interpretation of scripture, or a subjective interpretation of what “God” is telling the believer, then the believer must provide more specific and thorough characteristics, and they must not be able to be explained by way of natural phenomena. If something is a characteristic that is not evident (i.e., something that cannot be currently proven or disproven (string theory, for example) ), it is not logical to attribute it to anything definitively — so, god of the gaps arguments are insufficient. Until then, everything that exists is nature, natural, and not God, and therefore God does not exist.

If desired, the model above can be modified to reflect the “if not explained by natural phenomenon” restriction:

T ≡ ( (T = {Th,L}) & (Th & L) ) & ( (Th OR L) ≠ N)
Th = N
L = N
(Th OR L) = N
∴ ~T

Thor exists if and only if the set of characteristics of Thor is Thunder and Lightning, AND Thunder and Lightning are true (exist), AND Thunder OR Lightning aren’t explained by natural phenomenon.
Thunder is Natural, Lightning is Natural, so one of the characteristics is Natural.
Therefore, Thor does not exist.

If it works for Thor, and you really think Thor doesn’t exist (you don’t, do you?), then why can’t it work for something called “God” with characteristics that either don’t exist, or can be easily explained by nature, just like Thor’s lightning and thunder?

If a believer makes one last shot in the dark by saying that with all these logical restrictions, it’s impossible to prove that anything exists, let alone God (and therefore, we can’t disprove God, either), then the proper response is that if God is such that God’s characteristics lack the sufficient presence to be tested, such that we cannot prove or disprove God, then if God did exist, God has absolutely no influence on anything in the world — for if God did, then we’d be able to detect it, test it, and prove or disprove its relationship to God. If the believer says we wouldn’t be able to detect it, then that proves the lack of influence, and therefore effective lack of existence. In other words, if God lacks detectable influence, God is irrelevant.

Faults in my logic? Hit me!

-Procrustes

State of Protest

Endnote: If you haven’t figured it out, this analysis is really just about rejection of religion, not necessarily the rejection of the potential for there existing some greater being. There’s no reason not to believe there is something greater out there, but there is a better reason not to believe. Where the above analysis comes in handy is discussions with people who intend to use their proof of God to link back to the alleged truth of scripture or other divine intervention claimed to exist by the religious. When that is the case, there is always some link back to text, and that will always include some reference to an act the god allegedly committed, which helps define that god, at least subjectively with regard to that specific text or the specific religion being touted. When I say I can disprove God, I’m not saying I can disprove the existence of every potential incarnation of everything anyone can possibly call “God” or a greater being. I’m saying that if someone proffers a god with specific characteristics, and those characteristics don’t pass muster, that god does not exist. It’s interesting how our society has been coerced to believe that it is the duty of the unbeliever to continue to battle this pointless fight while the believer “fights” by way of smug stagnation.

Endnote2: Much of the feedback I’ve received from this analysis regards an argument that “answers prayers” is not necessary characteristic of God, nor is it even uniform among believers. My general response to that criticism is that the system of disproof I’ve proffered doesn’t require that God have that characteristic. It merely uses that characteristic as one of many potential example characteristics that can and have been used by believers to define what they call “God.” The sets of characteristics vary from belief to belief, but that has no bearing on whether this disproof works, because this concept is based on identifying whatever characteristics for “God” are proffered at the moment of analysis, not, however, on potential characteristics. In other words, whoever is advocating in the existence of something must define it in a substantial way, and if any bit of that definition is false in such a way that negates the possibility of that thing existing, then it doesn’t exist. So, to answer the criticism with regard to “answers prayers,” I merely say, then how do [i]you[/i] define what you call “God”?

Sometimes I get the rebuttal of “Well, lots of people claim that God answers prayers, and you can’t disprove them, so your disproof is wrong.” Merely because a lot of people claim something doesn’t make it true. More importantly, if we performed extensive studies that showed with reasonable accuracy that those prayers are, in fact, being answered, then that would be evidence in favor of “God,” as defined, but it would not make my disproof equation incorrect. My disproof equation doesn’t say “God does not exist.” The equation is merely a tool. Insert data, and it’ll spit out “God does not exist” or “/shrug.” If you look at the equation without entering data, it says nothing. Therefore, even if God really exists, my equation is not incorrect.

To Sue or Not to Sue… The President

Monday, December 29th, 2008

Camps are forming among the irreligious, based on Michael Newdow’s most recent attempt to break up the government-religious relationship — he’s suing President-elect Obama. Well, not directly, but effectively, through his lawsuit against the use of the term “So help me God” and inaugural prayer. Newdow and others claim that Obama and related officials should leave behind all semblance of religion when ascending the platform that will officially designate Obama as the next President of the United States.

Friendly Atheist is one prominent member of the camp that supports such a notion. He states:

There’s no reason Barack Obama should be swearing an oath to God when he takes office. (If he chooses to do so personally, that’s his decision, but it shouldn’t be part of the official ceremony.) There’s also no reason we should have prayers — in this case, Christian ones — at the inauguration.

Although Friendly Atheist believes that the lawsuit stands about the same chance as Newdow’s failed 2004 lawsuit of the same calibre, he thinks that the upside to such litigiousness is that it brings attention to the secular versus religious issue with regard to government.

On the other side of the aisle is Atheist Ethicist, arguing that because this is an issue of freedom of speech, it should not be fought with violence, but, instead, with speech. Violence, he says, because the court enforces its decisions with the force of the government (i.e., police), in the form of intimidation and sometimes actual force. The proper way to act in retaliation of the decision to meld the pulpit and the presidency is to condemn and criticize, but not prohibit the speech of others, particularly the president’s. Essentially, if we act through the courts to stifle the president’s ability to say a prayer or swear to God, then we make a mockery of our own arguments to protect our own right to not pray or swear to God.

Both arguments have valid points. It’s a good idea to bring to America’s attention that we haven’t always been a “Christian” nation, and that, as Friendly Atheist notes, our allusions to the biblical God were all fabricated and implemented fairly late in U.S. history. And it’s also proper for us to enforce the notion that government is supposed to be separate from religion, at least with regard to endorsement. On the other hand, it’s potentially risky to establish a precedent that we wouldn’t want applied to ourselves or to others, regardless of their belief.

I’ll add something to this. Obama won’t be passing any laws during the inauguration. The First Amendment protects us from Congress passing law respecting an establishment of religion. It’s got nothing to say about the president being sworn in by the Chief Justice, or about an invocation, or if the president-elect wants to wear a turban or a cross or a clown suit.

So, which argument is stronger? The one supporting the lawsuit or the one opposing it? Is there a limit to which rational people should go in pursuit of separation of church and state, and is this the limit?

-Procrustes

State of Protest

God and Reason

Friday, December 26th, 2008

Someone who professed to be Christian once said to me, “If I didn’t believe what I believe, I would be living a whole different kind of life.” I wish I had asked him to elaborate, although in the context in the conversation, I got the impression that he meant he’d be living a much less moral existence. The implication here is that religion or god or gods are the source of morality and basic value systems.

I would have to disagree.

While I am sure there are many of the religious stripe who would be less moral individuals if they did not believe, that says nothing about the source of ethical behavior. These particular individuals are driven to “proper” behavior by a promise of eternal reward, or, if they fail, punishment. Their reasoning is, why else be ethical, if it will mean nothing in the end? They say that if god commands it, it must be good, and the ends justify the means. But, is that what morality truly means?

I am sure there is a view that many believers take of agnostics and atheists – that they must be immoral individuals since they are uninterested in taking orders from a higher power. This shows poor logic, but that is not surprising, considering the uneasy relationship logic and religion have had over the years. God and morality are not a package deal. God belief doesn’t make a person moral, and neither does lack of belief make a person immoral. The point is, one does not need to believe in, or even be aware of, a god to be moral, good, or just.

Religion doesn’t give human nature much credit. Many things known to be instinctual behaviors are considered “sinful” by most religious standards. But human nature is not dumb. Certainly, things like the instinct to eat and breed have kept the species alive. But those are not the only kinds of survival mechanisms that humans have evolved. A majority of us have a strong sense of wanting to help others; at the very least our immediate family members. While initially, altruistic behavior probably evolved from selfish means in order to establish and maintain communities, this doesn’t mean that it cannot be intrinsic to one’s being. My having a conscience does not necessitate belief in a god or a religion and its stipulations. I will always wish for the happiness of my friends and family, and I still make it a point to do the right thing. Do I do this because someone or some establishment tells me to? No. I do it because I want to, because that is the kind of person I want to be, whether I am rewarded for it or not, whether it meets the approval of a clergy or not, and whether it is what god wants or not. The reward is that hopefully, I will contribute to the happiness of others. Often, though, even when the right thing is done, there is no reward at all, and sometimes, there is even punishment. While this can be frustrating, it doesn’t change the fact that I think the right thing should be done, and that morality is not about the reward at the end, but about doing what is best, no matter the consequences to oneself. I will clarify that what is best is rarely found in a set of rules that were written down millennia ago. I think “what is best” will usually present itself in the form of “what causes the least amount of suffering for all involved?”

I will make the assumption that even if there is a god, then we can know nothing about it, under the standard definition of “god”. The gods that all the various religions describe are not terribly impressive, and if I were to be convinced of their existence, then I would be harder pressed to be convinced to worship them. Descriptions of god have made “him” out to be alternately jealous and forgiving, wrathful and loving, having a “plan”, but still requiring our prayers for intervention. If anything, god sounds like he was made in man’s image, instead of vice-versa. This shows not only a lack of imagination, but also a lack of god-like features one might expect from a being dubbed as the “almighty”.

Keeping that in mind, I will use a popular argument against the traditional notion of god. With all the suffering in the world, that an all-knowing god is surely aware of, he either can’t do anything about it (which contradicts him being all-powerful), or he won’t (which contradicts his supposed “loving” nature). How could a god who loves us so, allow for the horrible things that happen? Of particular curiosity to me are the Jews. They believe they have a covenant with god; that he has promised to protect them, that they are the “chosen people”. Why then, have they been consistently sought out for complete extermination for thousands of years? Why did their god allow the Egyptian Pharoah to enslave them, and then hardened Pharoah’s heart when Moses asked for their freedom? Where was their god during the rise of Nazi Germany? Was he looking out for them then? It almost seems like a cruel joke. Whoever this god is, he doesn’t seem terribly dependable, nor merciful, or even fatherly. He actually seems quite negligent, and if I were Jewish, I would have trouble reconciling some of these facts.

Of course, the usual response from the religious on these matters is that we are not to question god, and that he works in mysterious ways. I would think any god worth his salt wouldn’t need this sort of reasoning to excuse his inexplicably sloppy guardianship. I think what’s really happening here is that we’re searching for a why, and when there isn’t one, we invoke god’s “plan” as the basis for the atrocious acts that happen in the world every day. Honestly, though, I would rather believe that nearly everything is completely random, and that’s why bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people. I would rather think that than to tell myself that there is some grand purpose that requires the pain and suffering of innocent people (children in particular). If, as a human, I allowed for the suffering of others, and justified it by saying that it was suiting some greater purpose of mine, I would be called a tyrant. I would be called selfish, and callous, and uncaring. Yet, when “god” is brought into it, then it becomes okay. Why?

Another oddity of religion is that it makes us think we can be immortal. The one thing that is sure to happen to us – death – is the one we deny over and over again, through religion. Sigmund Freud has said that a belief in the afterlife is wish fulfillment, the wish that we and our loved ones do not have to die. While I generally disagree with just about every other conclusion about humans Freud has made, I have to give him credit on this one. When I contemplate my own death, it makes me terribly uncomfortable. Contemplating the death of my husband and children is even more frightening. I cannot imagine how devastating it is to lose someone you love as much as I love them. I can understand the comfort it would bring to believe that I would see them again someday. However, I have no reason to believe this, aside from the fact that it would make me feel good, and that is not reason enough. Religion denies this reality, and I think it’s too bad.

I’ll explain why.

Thinking that we go on forever, that all the people we love are always going to be here – that’s the kind of attitude that allows us to take people for granted. When I go back to contemplating my eventual demise, it makes me realize that chances are good that this is the only life I get, the only chance I will have to spend time with the people I care about. It makes me value my time here more, because if this really is it, then I had better make the best of it. The only thing that may go on is memories of me in the minds of others, and that is incentive enough to live my life the best that I can. Punishment and reward has nothing to do with it, and neither does any god. Reason alone provides enough motivation to be ethical, and to love my family as much as I can, while I can.

The inevitable query, “But what if you’re wrong?” usually comes up at this point. What if, what if, what if…I suppose I could be wrong. If there’s a god, and it created everything, then it created me. It gave me this mind, these analytical skills, and these ideas. It gave me reason, but not faith. Keep in mind that I do not choose to be faithless; I just simply am. In the same way that I don’t choose to hate mushrooms or country music – I just do, and like having no faith, it is not something that I can help. Why would god make me, and countless others, this way, only to punish us eternally in the end for it? Another cosmic joke? Are these my choices? I must say, I haven’t been given much to work with. Sure, I could go to church and try to spread the gospel and hope that it grows on me. In the meantime, though, I would merely be operating out of a fear of hell. And I would still be faithless. Truthfully, I don’t think I would be much different than many other church-goers in that respect.

The usual reply here from theists is that I must sincerely ask god to come into my heart. You think I never tried that? You think that I just decided atheism sounded good and went into it with absolutely no investigation whatsoever? You would be wrong to assume as such. Like many atheists, I struggled with my beliefs for several years. Instead of quieting my concerns, my search only yielded more questions. With no faith to build on, and no real answers, I realized that I could not say I believed in any god while remaining intellectually honest. A more truthful statement would be that I would love it if there was a god that allowed for an afterlife where I could be with my family again. But do I really believe in it? No.

Does this make me immoral? Does this make me evil? Depends on who you ask. When it comes to believers, there are some that believe that even those who haven’t been saved but who still do good works, are good people. And there are some that believe that good works have nothing to do with it – that it’s all about your salvation. That is, you may be a serial killer, but if you repent, you will get further with god than an atheist who devotes his life to helping others. Once again, a belief like that seems downright harmful when it comes down to what we do know: That we’re here now. The concept of a repentant criminal receiving better treatment than a charitable atheist is pretty ridiculous, considering that the atheist is doing something right now to make things tangibly better – in this life that is guaranteed real – while there are believers who allow suffering because they don’t see the point in intervening.

So going back to the original statement, that believing in something makes one moral… those are the people I wonder about: the ones who are moral simply because god says so. What kind of people are they really, on the inside? To need a reward and/or approval to act properly – I think that’s juvenile. Only children operate like that. Adults are defined as such by knowing better. I guess for those adults that feel that god is keeping them in line, I should be thankful for religion, because who knows what kind of people they would be otherwise.

Best StOP Posts of the Entire Friggin Year – 2008

Monday, December 22nd, 2008

I was going to do a best blog posts, taking from other blogs, but after churning through a single month archive of a single blog, I realized that it would take me about a year to accomplish such a feat. So, I’m just going to pick stuff from this blog. It’s not wholly narcissistic, since some of the posts will have been written by people who are not me.

In mostly chronological order:

JNTB debunks the Significance of the Dead Sea Scrolls

Philadelphic challenges the idea that there can be “fundy atheists.” in Readings… The Hilariously Bad, The Good, and the WTF

Laura analyzes the impact of pro-abstinence laws on public school sex education, in Sexual Education and the Implications of Senate Bill 155

Velkyn doesn’t like living within A Culture of Lies

Procrustes rants about the meaninglessness of prayer in Mourning Cards and Tornadoes

Laura dissects the Watchtower and puts it on display in Jehovah’s Witnesses Unearthed

Velkyn debunks Dr. Brandon Carter’s “God did it” claims with regard to those nasty gaps in the universe, in Secrets: God: the Evidence, part of the Unearthed series (which is really very good!)

Procrustes addresses Roger Severino’s arguments against gay marriage in Regarding Roger Severino’s “Legalizing Gay Marriage Will Spark Lawsuits…”

Procrustes’ early criticism of Obama’s fierce loyalty to Christianity, in Thank God Obama Worships the “Right” God (follow up with The Trend of Obama Doubt)

FormerFundy argues that Personal Responsibility is Paramount Especially in the Political Realm

Spider details and then skillfully criticizes Catholic World Youth Day 2008

Procrustes agrees that we should be teaching creationism in schools, but Why Stop at Creationism?

In light of the inability of certain groups to protest outside the Democratic National Convention, Laura questions limits to the right of free speech in Run DNC

Procrustes, with help from Velkyn, explores what it means versus what it should mean to be tolerant today in Intolerable Tolerance

Apropos, JNTB asks, Would a Christian Bail You Out?

As the Bush era is finally ending, many of us acknowledge the fact that it’s not really ending. It’ll take decades, if ever, to undue all the harm he’s caused. Procrustes gives us a reminder of all that harm (if you can stomach it) in More U.S. Anti-Contraception in Africa, Plus a Look Back on Bush’s Anti-Choice Legacy (You can follow up on this by reading Laura’s article: Bush Administration Makes Last Ditch Effort to Diminish Women’s Rights)

Laura identifies the Mormons as having a terrible amount of power and coercion in the Proposition 8 debacle, in Proposition 8, the Mormons, and the New “Separate But Equal” (Also see the follow-up: Erasing Decades of Moral Progress with Proposition 8)

JNTB questions the American ideological pursuit of spreading democracy in Spreading Democracy?

Shar’iah Law Rocks (Unfortunately, literally)

JNTB examines the perception of what life is, and what human life is, with reference to Motl Brody, in Life and Death

Mutha (rearing her head, finally) discusses what real patriotism is (or should be) in Waiter! There’s Dogma in My Primordial Soup!

What’s really the State of Christmas?

Procrustes asks, Why is there a Legal Provision Allowing a Lighter Sentence Based on Religious Beliefs?

If you hadn’t already heard, Being Religious is Like Eating Sand

Laura and Absinthium for their amazing Comics (and I’ll take partial blame for most of them, as I was the idea person, they were the artists — were it not for them, all StOP comics would look like a take-off on xkcd or Stick Figure Death Theater)

Finally, and out of order, but appropriate for the time of year, Procrustes asks, Is Banning the Words “Christmas” and “Easter” an Appropriate Secular Goal?

There’s so much more that I really enjoy, but I can’t rightly put them all on an end-of-the-year list. If anything, be sure to check out the Unearthed series, which really sheds some light on a variety of religious beliefs. For easy access to all StOP’s articles, see the Archives in easy-to-open/read format in the sidebar. Thanks for reading State of Protest!

(Oh, and if you have a favorite StOP post that’s not on the list, let me know in the comments!)

StOP Christmas  (heheh)
(man, that’s ugly — My fault!)

The Trend of Obama Doubt

Thursday, December 18th, 2008

Is he merely catering to the small minority of Christian fundamentalist fanatics whom he threatens to depose by his mere accession to the presidential seat? Is he secretly homophobic? Is this subtle humor to show us what life would have been like under a McCain/Palin administration? Did all the hundreds of other potential choices have something scheduled on January 20th? Or was Obama just not thinking straight when he decided to invite the notorious fundamentalist homophobe Rick Warren to offer an inaugural prayer next month?

Yes, this is what everyone is jabbering about right now. Oh my God, you picked Rick Warren!?!?! Out of all the people! Well, I was jabbering, among a few others, about Obama’s pro-Christian, to the point of making me nervous about him, attitude way back in July, when I wrote “Thank God Obama Worships the “Right” God.” I mentioned that in light of rumors that Obama was Muslim, because he had attended a Muslim school for a short time as a child, Obama’s “Factcheck” web page, devoted to quelling such rumors, spent an inordinate amount of space not only just simply denying Obama’s Muslimhood, but also wildly exaggerating Obama’s Christianity. I was worried that what appeared to be wild exaggeration was actually a sign that Obama was a closet fundamentalist, or at least has a strong preference for the Christian religion and beliefs. My examination of the statements he’s made to that effect in the past, coupled with his selection of Rick Warren, have solidified my doubts about his demeanor with regard to Christian partisanship.

Regarding Warren, vjack at Atheist Revolution sums the pastor up nicely:

-Warren supported the ban on gay marriage in California.
-Warren opposes reproductive rights.
-Warren is clearly outside mainstream America and has been compared, fairly I believe, to James Dobson. Hell, he’s compared himself to Dobson!1

Now, we probably shouldn’t jump on the guilt by association bandwagon (as Obama’s opponents were wont to do during the election), but there are significantly safer, more neutral, and more politically correct (forgive me) selections for an inaugural companion. And this news of the Warren selection is right on the heels of other questionable behavior by Obama — notably, his cabinet choices. Having a cabinet and set of advisors that even Cheney agrees with should send up little red flags all over America.

Someone should ask Obama about what part of “change” we must have misunderstood. Is this country about to be run by the old administration in sheep’s clothing? Instead, how about… A bit of change away from the status quo of treating Christians and most other mainstream religions with preference; a change away from the Bush Doctrine; a change away from civil rights destruction (including the Patriot Act and its relatives); a change away from arbitrary discrimination in the guise of morality, promoted and perpetuated by religious groups; a change from the useless war on drugs (that ends up leaving the U.S. with the highest ratio of inmates in the entire world); a change from sexual discrimination in every form; a change away from criminalization of that which does not hurt, but is criminalized solely because of puritan influence; a change from pointless wars or wars fought for oil, or dominance, or whatever; a change from homophobia and the perpetuation of tradition that used to sit comfortably next to slavery and treating women as chattel. This isn’t change for the sake of change. It’s a change to improve our lives, get us out from under the foot of oppression, and help make this entire world more livable and, gods forbid, lovable.

Where’s that change, Obama? I don’t see it. I see, again, falling in line.

-Procrustes (pissed)

Who else has something to say about this issue?

Christopher Hitchens, at Slate, says we can do much better than Warren. If we must have an officiating priest.

Rob Boston at the AU Blog says that although Warren poses as a moderate, he’s really just another Falwell wannabee.

Vjack, as mentioned above, has a few things to say, including the wise advice to not sweep this one under the rug. He’s also indirectly supplied me with a few of these links to other articles, as well as bringing to my attention the contact information for Obama’s team.

The Atheist Experience is calling this Obama’s first big screwup.

Pam Spaulding, at Pam’s House Blend, suggests that although it’s a good idea to let the Obama camp know how we feel about this issue, it’s unlikely to be reversed.

Dave Silverman, at American Atheists, reminds Obama that he’s supposed to be a Democrat. (however, I say, look at the behavior of the rest of the self-proclaimed Democrats in Congress)

Bligbi nails the point in that by choosing Warren, Obama is making the pastor his representative. And, better yet, calls Obama out on his claim to be a fierce advocate of the LGBT community.

CNN has an interview of Rick Warren by Kiran Chetry.

Greta Christina (recently featured at BoingBoing) worries that Obama just wants everyone to like him, and in his attempt to eschew intolerance, he will become too tolerant.

Daily Kos acknowledges that there may be a silver lining in all this — that Obama will now be forced to continue to affirm his stance of equality with regard to LGBT rights.

Olbermann on Warren:



Rachel Maddow:



More to follow soon, as the theatrics roll.

StOP

  1. http://www.atheistrev.com/2008/12/obamas-inaugural-blunder-rick-warren.html [<]